Keith Wood has been called many things during his time in the public eye: talismanic captain of Ireland, Munster stalwart, Heineken Cup finalist, BBC rugby pundit, analyst for The Telegraph, the IRB’s inaugural International Player of the Year and also the less than flattering nicknames Uncle Fester and Raging Potato. But never, until now, has Keith been called at home by Sport.co.uk.
After sidestepping and evading our advances with footwork previously unheard of for a retired Irish international hooker, we finally caught hold of the genial Munster-man to tackle the many issues presenting themselves at international and domestic level: namely how the men in green can recover from a torrid couple of tests in this autumn series. At the time of speaking Ireland were licking their wounds from a narrow South Africa defeat and defending a lacklustre performance against a resurgent Samoa – the New Zealand mauling was awaiting them.
As if that wasn't enough, we also quizzed Wood on the highlights of his 58 test career caps, unearthed his lowest on field moments, discussed being marshalled by Martin Johnson in his five outings in a Lions jersey, touched on why he didn’t celebrate the 1997 series victory over the Boks in Durban, analysed BOD, ROG and Sexton, previewed the 2011 World Cup and selected his punt for this year’s player of the year. Phew...
Cruelly we ran out of time before we could question how fellow pundit Will Greenwood supposedly got him into beekeeping...but we will endeavour to tackle this nugget of intrigue next time we catch up with Keith.
Keith we’ve struggled to pin you down for the last few weeks. How have you been keeping busy? Apart from working as a pundit for the BBC are you still heavily involved in rugby?
I am a little bit, more peripherally than day-to-day. I love rugby so much but, to be honest, I never had the coaching bug where I would be involved every day. Because of that I’m not as attached to it as I could be, I suppose.
What happened in the South Africa game? Ireland turned the game on its head and was so close to beating the Boks were it not for that final kick.
I thought we got the game plan very wrong. We tried to do too much with the ball before taking a bit of the confrontation. Against South Africa you need to be a bit of a bully to deal with the amount of aggression they use and the manner in which they play in. South Africa weren’t trying to play but rather use a style of two or three years ago. They kicked the ball to make the opposition play and lap up any mistakes. That’s basically what happened. Ireland made a few mistakes. South Africa went on to score and then sat on us.
Now in the second half we expected Ireland to come out flying and they didn’t. It needed the reassurance of the old heads with Ronan O’Gara to turn the game and he did. He had a lot of control, kicked the ball into plenty of space. He knows how to play those games. He’s played an awful lot of them in his career. Almost single-handedly he nearly pulled it off.
In that case do you feel there’s too much pressure from followers of the game and the media to play this risk-taking, expansive game?
I don’t know that it’s necessarily from the public. I think there’s a drive at the moment that some of the southern hemisphere teams are stronger. New Zealand in particular are playing a brand of rugby that maybe a lot of the other teams are not. Because of that, they [the northern hemisphere teams] feel they have to catch up and, to be honest, I think they do have to catch up to a degree.
I thought England did incredibly well with a mixture of power and skill in the last game which is what you want, you want a balance. The northern hemisphere teams have a different style. We’ve never had the same style as an Australia or New Zealand but we do need to pick up on some of the things they do.
Last weekend I was at the New Zealand – Scotland game. It was like a master class in how to play with quick rucks. Now Scotland let them play with quick rucks but they still did it and played unbelievably really. It was a pleasure to watch.
Raw Power
Is the gap between the Northern and Southern hemisphere nations getting closer or further apart? Has it closed up following the England game or stretched even further with the Scotland result?
I never really know until it gets to a World Cup. The first weekend of the autumn internationals tends to be very rusty for the home teams and it always has done. By the time two or three of the games come along those teams seem to have picked up. Scotland played their first game last week and didn’t really play at the intensity they would have liked but they’re a better team than that. New Zealand are battle-hardened having been in competition all year.
You’re asking for teams that are peaking at different levels and it becomes very hard to discern which ones are on top. Traditionally the southern hemisphere teams have been better than northern hemisphere ones. That’s a round-about way of not answering your question.
Yes, you side-stepped that one with aplomb. Australia were beaten by a pumped up Munster last week who showed the Irish senior side how it can be done. Do you feel at times the rugby of the club game is on a par or even of a higher calibre to that of the international game?
To be brutally honest I think some of the games in the autumn are a case of people trying to find where they are. They are test matches and they’re bloody hard but you’re asking a team that a not naturally at their peak in the season as compared to the Six Nations. What we do need to do is try to make certain that some of our young guys are being given a chance at club level, at Munster level. There is a feeling out there that some of these young guys are good enough to be out there playing for their country.
If we look at some of your personal experiences in the green jersey for Ireland; jumping straight into that 1999 World Cup game against USA. You scored four times out of the eight touched over that day. Can you take us back to that game?
The accumulative yardage that I covered for those four tries probably amounted to a yard. I fell over and landed on the balls. For all of those four tries I just had to put the ball down. I would love to take huge amounts of credit but I can’t because it was down to the team entirely.
I was playing against one of my best friends who was captain of the America team, Tom Billups. We were at Quins together and he’s a great fella. It was one of his last games actually and we were selected for drug testing afterwards. The two of us were sitting inside afterwards drinking tonnes of orange juice and water trying to get ready to pee into the bottle so we were chatting about it for ages afterwards.
A hero mobbed by adoring fans
In that tournament you narrowly lost out to Argentina in the quarter-final play-off in Lens, compounding a forgettable record for the Irish who have never progressed past the last eight in a World Cup. What were your emotions after the game?
We didn’t even get to the quarter-finals in 1999. It was very disappointing, very disturbing and I thought we just weren’t up to scratch. A lot of people didn’t give Argentina the credit that they were a really good team. I would give them that credit but it wouldn’t take away from the fact we just didn’t try and do anything. We played very badly, very disappointing in every level and made it very hard for us in the years ahead because we had to qualify [against Georgia and Russia] for the World Cup in 2003. We had to take in long haul trips to Siberia to play matches.
Your final bow came in the 2003 World Cup. What are your memories of those matches in Australia?
When 2003 came along I hadn’t played for a long time and was trying my best to get as fit as I could. I knew myself that it was going to be the end of the road for me. I hadn’t declared it but I really wanted to do something personally and that basically meant doing something special for the team. We played some very good games. That game against Argentina was the most physical game I’ve ever played and was one of my last games. I couldn’t get over how physical it was. When we got that victory out of the way it was phenomenal.
For us to progress, the way that things were going to fall in the tournament, we really needed to beat Australia. There were people in the press saying we should forget about that game and concentrate on beating France in the quarter-finals but we wanted to win this game. The best thing was for us to beat Australia and then play Scotland in the quarters and hopefully progress.
We needed to win our games but Australia beat us by a point [17-16]. We had a chance to win it and it didn’t happen. Such is life. They were great games and we played some of our best rugby. When we played France we caught them on one of those magic days that they have when every ball they pass goes in front of the guy and he catches it running at full tilt. No ball went to ground and they were 20 points up after 20 minutes. They coasted home and it ended up something like 43-21.
We were comprehensively beaten and that was the end of the road for me. It was emotional but I was proud of the standard of the team and proud of my own standard. I would have liked to retire a couple weeks later.
After we went out of the World Cup we just went and wanted to drink too much. We just wanted to chill out. Actually the truth is we didn’t drink too much because of the late kick-offs and you were hyper after the game. You can’t sleep after those games anyway. We were staying in Melbourne very close to the Grand Casino so we’d wonder in there. It was the end not a celebration.
Take that...boom.
How do you feel Ireland have done since you handed the captaincy reigns over to Brian O’Driscoll?
They’ve done incredibly well. They’ve achieved at things I missed out in and wished to have done. They’ve gone from strength to strength and there’s a huge amount of quality in the team although this team is at the end of its life span and we need to make certain we get the new boys through and continue to progress. It is very hard to stay at the top of the curve and that’s the challenge they have got at the moment.
On the international stage you were also a key feature of the British and Irish Lions tours in 1997 in South Africa and in 2001 in Australia. The highlight has to be that unbreakable defence late in the second test of 1997 where you held off the Boks to clinch an 18-15 victory and seal the series win in Durban.
Yeah I’m glad you remembered the score. Great victory, great game, great tour. The Lions are so special on so many levels. I remember in the last two minutes I collided with their replacement second-row Fritz van Heerden. I tried to pull my leg out of the way and tore my groin. I played on for the last minute or two and you just can’t do anything. I tried to go off but we just didn’t seem to have time so when Neil Jenkins kicked it out on the full for the game to be over and we’d won everybody else was jumping all over the place. I was delighted but I just couldn’t walk. I remember our lock Jeremy Davidson was saying “come on smile Keith, don’t be so grumpy” and I just said “I can’t smile”.
It was fantastic, great exhilaration at a great place to play a game and win a test. You come out afterwards and all the South Africans are there with their pick-ups and they’ve brought their own barbeques with them. As you’re walking to the post-match function people are stopping to talk with supporters and they invite you over to have a drink and a bit of steak. It is an incredible place to play with a huge family atmosphere.
On both Lions tours in 1997 and 2001 you were captained by Martin Johnson. What was that like? How do you think he’s doing in his role with England?
I have nothing but respect for him. I actually thought he was an incredible captain and very reassuring for every player. He was the man and everybody knew it and everybody accepted it. It took a lot of pressure off because nobody was vying for his role. I thought he was a very good player, very comfortable in his position. He didn’t mind if people wanted to talk or not. You did refer to him and he’d let you have a go and rile up the troops. I thought he did an incredible job.
I knew when he got the England job he’d do good job but it’s taken him a while longer than I thought. He was always the right man for England whenever they were going to give him the job.
On duty with the Lions
Where do you see the careers of the icons Brian O’Driscoll and Ronan O’Gara in five/10 years time?
To be honest I don’t know about any intentions for them to go into coaching. There’s a bit of life left in them yet. O’Driscoll is the best Irish player I’ve ever played with by any stretch of the imagination. He’s just fantastic. Very capable in everything and desire to boot. O’Gara had a few bites at the cherry at the start. He was young and slight but he offered a lot of consistency for 10 years with Ireland in the same sense with O’Driscoll’s and most of that was built off the back of O’Gara. He’s had a phenomenal career and it isn’t over yet. He’s vying for his test jersey with Johnny Sexton and that’s only good for him. The Six Nations will literally be a fight to see who gets the 10 jersey. Sexton has an ability to attack a game but there’s more life in this dog yet.
You played out your club rugby in England with Harlequins and at home in Ireland with Garryowen and Munster. How do you feel the Irish teams are doing in the Heineken Cup this season? Munster and Leinster were pipped to the final by the French last year; do you see them going further this year?
They’re doing very well again. Things didn’t go well in the first couple weeks but as they have done consistently over the last 10 years, they came to the fore. Both Leinster [with Clermont, Saracens and Racing Metro] and Munster [with Toulon, Treviso and London Irish] in particular are in incredibly hard pools. Ulster are in a decent pool. There should be opportunities for all of the Irish teams to get out of their pools but for Leinster and Munster in particular. It is very difficult but an awful lot hinges on it in Ireland. The teams have consistently got out of their pools because there is a focus on [the Heineken Cup].
Do you feel the standard in the Magners League is of a high enough intensity compared to the southern hemisphere Super 14 or is the Heineken Cup far more integral to prepare players for the international level?
It is integral but the Magners League has gone from strength to strength in the last few years. Some of the standard in the games is absolutely fantastic. Some of them aren’t but that’s the nature of every competition you go into. I think the Super 14 is a different style. There are great skills on show without a shadow of a doubt but I think they lack some of the intensity, some of the rivalries that are present in the northern hemisphere. Which one is better? I don’t know. I don’t necessarily want to see 60 points scoring games.
Last couple now. You were the inaugural winner of the IRB World Player of the Year in 2001. Since then Ritchie McCaw, Jonny Wilkinson, Shane Williams, Dan Carter among others have received the honour. Who do you see in the running for the award in 2010?
I still would like to wait until the last couple of weeks but I think there are a lot of guys who can put their hands up this season. It’s very hard to look away from New Zealand. They are just showing some incredible play. Mils Muliaina [the All Blacks full-back] I think has been phenomenal this year. He just seems to be getting better year by year. He’s got 92 caps and will have 93 at the weekend. He’s done extraordinarily well.
I was one of the judges there for a few years and you take huge interest in individual play but I don’t as much now. I think this is a harder year because there have been fewer stand-out players. The first year Richie McCaw won it [2006] he was truly extraordinary. There was nobody else on the page. The second year [2009] I was convinced it should have gone to Brian O’Driscoll because he was fantastic that year.
Lastly...
Lastly, lastly now.
...Ireland’s group for next year’s World Cup is made up of Australia and Italy as well as the lesser known quantities of USA and Russia. Which nation do you feel can make that step up from the second or third tier of international rugby to truly compete with the top teams?
World Cups do great things for teams and give them a great opportunity but to be brutally frank neither of those teams should trouble Ireland. As a favourite in a game you need to go out and remind the opposition why you are the favourites and they’re not which means playing unbelievably physically and quickly for the first 20/30 minutes. Everything becomes as hard as you can physically make it. If that happens Ireland won’t have to worry.
What about beyond 2011?
You’ve managed to get through another question there...beyond 2011? I’m not looking beyond 2011 for this Irish team. I think they need to get the most out of this present crop by bringing through in the next 12 months some guys to bolster the squad, not just to bolster it but to give these young guys an opportunity to play. You put all your cards into the hat for the World Cup and see what lands afterwards because there will be plenty of guys who will hang up their boots and maybe some of them beforehand. You need to get to the tournament and don’t look beyond it. Beyond it will have to take care of itself. Somebody else will have to take a look at that one.
What about the beekeeping Keith?
Right, the door went and my phone is now hopping so I’m going to have to dash.
Hello? Keith...?