George Graham’s list of former employers reads almost like a Who’s Who guide to English football. He started out as a young player at Aston Villa before spells at Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester United, Portsmouth and Crystal Palace. Then came a glittering managerial career, which started at Millwall and then took in Arsenal, Leeds United and Tottenham Hotspur. It was at Highbury that he enjoyed his greatest successes, winning the league and FA Cup double as a player in 1970/71 and then two league titles, two League Cups, an FA Cup and a European Cup Winners' Cup during nine years in charge of the North London giants. Sport.co.uk caught up with the great man in order to discuss Gunners sides past and present, how his other former clubs are faring, and much more besides…
So, Arsenal are going well…
GG: Very well. At the beginning of the season, a lot of people were tipping them to be outside the top four but you’ve got to admire Arsene’s foresight, because he’s always had belief that the squad of players he’s got is good enough, not only to be in the top four but also to challenge for the Premiership.
Do you think it’s a case of all the young players starting to blossom together?
GG: There’s a few players who, just a year to 18 months ago, maybe hadn’t made the necessary advancement that everyone expected. The midfield boys especially – they come along a lot quicker. But Arsene works with them every day and he can see the advancement day in, day out on the training ground, and the fans don’t see that. He’s been working with the boys on a daily basis and he’s seen how much they’ve progressed, so full credit to them – they’re on a good run now. Whether they’ve got all the right ingredients to make a serious challenge for the Premiership, I still have my doubts but, to be fair, only one man knows and that’s the manager. And he’s doing a fantastic job there.
It’s widely believed that Wenger has had money available but has, in the main, held back from spending it. Do you think this is down to his philosophy of developing young players, or is it down to a belief that he’s more or less already got the squad he wants?
GG: I think it’s two things, really. If you say they’ve got the money available alongside, say, what United spend, what Chelsea spend, what Liverpool spend – I don’t think they’ve got that sort of money. They’ve got a certain amount, but I don’t think they’ve got as much money as the other big boys. Then again, I don’t think Arsene is the type who likes to buy these record transfers. His managerial philosophy is that he likes to buy a rough diamond – obviously costing money, but not at the top end of the market – and polish them up into beautiful diamonds. That’s just the way he works and that’s his managerial style.
Which players have stood out for you so far?
GG: There’s so many of them. The surprising thing in the games I’ve seen was playing Bendtner wide right and pushing van Persie right up the middle to be the top striker. Everybody’s always admired van Persie’s talent but, for me, he’s not played enough games since he joined the club. He’s always picked up an injury here and an injury there. When you’re trying to win the Premiership, it’s important that your top players play as many games as they can. It’s no use your top players only playing half the games in the season. Van Persie’s surprised me – he’s done better than expected, but it remains to be seen whether he can continue that sort of form and play up front for the rest of the season. Bendtner’s done very well on the right side of the pitch, especially with injuries to Walcott and Rosicky, so there are players who have improved a lot more than the fans expected.
Stewart Houston, your former assistant, recently joined Arsenal’s scouting staff. Could you ever see yourself returning to the club in some capacity?
GG: I don’t think so. Sometimes in life you get an opportunity and I got the opportunity to manage a great club. It was fantastic, and almost a dream come true having had a lot of success there as a player. But to do even better as a manager was something that I didn’t expect. Sometimes you’re better not going back again – cherish the times you had there, but don’t try to relive them because it’s never the same.
Were there any players who you looked at – or even tried to sign – that you regret missing out on?
GG: That’s a good question, actually.
Someone mentioned David Ginola. Was that ever the case?
GG: No, that’s not true. I tried to buy Tony Cottee before he went to Everton – I met Tony and his dad but, at that time, Arsenal were very strict about their pay structure. I would think they still are, in comparison with the other big clubs in the Premiership. But yeah, we missed out on Tony Cottee because Everton offered more money, or a better pay deal. There were a couple of players that joined United - their names escape me now. But there weren’t any what you’d call massive players who went on to really…although Tony Cottee did very well at Everton and then at Leicester and obviously West Ham. Sometimes, when you miss out on players, it’s amazing how the players you didn’t expect to do that well actually did do well. When I think of the signings of Dixon, Bould, Winterburn, even Alan Smith – they went on to be heroes for Arsenal. I didn’t expect them to be that good but they were absolutely fantastic. To play into their late 30’s, even winning trophies into their late 30’s, was a magnificent achievement for those players.
You must take a lot of pride in bringing that great defence together…
GG: Very much so. Even David Seaman – he played for Arsenal when he was 40. That’s a fantastic achievement. The thing I looked for when I was buying players was not only their technical ability but also their desire. And I think their desire was why they won the trophies they did under me and then under Arsene. Not only that, but how late into their football lives they played at the highest level is absolutely amazing.
Arsene Wenger said recently that he thought any of the members of that backline could go on to be a manager, perhaps even his successor. Did you see managerial qualities in them while you were managing them?
GG: I don’t think you can make that assessment at all. I’m the great example of it – I don’t think anybody expected me to become a coach or a manager when I was a player. And that was a good judgement, because I had no interest in coaching, no interest in management. They would have been a hundred per cent right. So when people say, he’s got the necessary attributes to become a top coach or a top manager, I’m sorry – I don’t think you can judge that when they’re a player. There are many outstanding people who’ve shown qualities as a player but never made it as a manager, so I would never say that this player or that player is going to be a good manager.
Going back to Tony Cottee – that would have been before you signed Ian Wright. If you had signed Cottee, would you never have signed Wright a year or two later?
GG: Who knows? You can always say, if you didn’t do this, would you have done that. There’s no point in second-guessing yourself. The Tony Cottee thing was something that never materialised, so you just move on. A lot of fans, at every club, don’t realise that this is what managers do – they try their best to buy certain players and, if it doesn’t work out, then sometimes you go for option two, option three, maybe even option four and, all of a sudden, that works out more than you ever expected. So it’s not by accident. When people make decisions, I think they usually have plan B, plan C and plan D.
Do you have a tip for the title?
GG: At the beginning of the season, I thought that Chelsea just edged it with their experience. A lot of so-called experts were saying they haven’t got the legs, that it’s an ageing group but, nowadays, I think that’s a load of nonsense. They’re asking players in their early 30’s to play 20 or 25 games a year. When we were in our prime as players, we’d play about 50 or 60 games a year. With the new diets and the way they conduct themselves, there’s no reason why these players can’t play into their mid 30’s.
Are players more susceptible to injuries these days?
GG: Well, it seems like it. But, when I was playing, we used to play with injuries. Not serious injuries, but ones where you weren’t a hundred per cent fit, or you were carrying a knock, maybe your ankle or your knee was a little bit dodgy – we would go and play with them. Sometimes it maybe wasn’t a good idea. We used to get an injection into the problem and that would get us through the game but, in the long run, I don’t think that’s a wise thing. Players don’t do that nowadays. I don’t think the games got more physical – the tackle from behind has been more or less outlawed, and the violent tackles aren’t as common as they were when I was playing.
Is the amount of diving a new thing, or does it just get picked up on more these days?
GG: That’s definitely increased. There’s no question about that. When we played in Europe 25 or 35 years ago, shirt-pulling at set-pieces, blocking at set-pieces and diving was all normal. Unfortunately we inherited it when we brought all these foreign players over, but they’ve also brought a great imagination to the game in England. It’s been a great boost having these great foreign players but they’ve brought some baggage as well. There have been some very average players on fantastic money, and they’re taking the places of the domestic players. But yes, there’s too much diving in English football.
The prospect of the top four monopoly getting broken up looks very real this season. Which team do you think stands the best chance of doing so? City, Spurs and Villa look like the favourites, with Everton and Sunderland as outside bets…
GG: Let’s see how they go. It’s the beginning of the season, so there are teams like Sunderland, who’ve had a great start under Steve Bruce - and there’s no reason why they can’t continue. They look a strong outfit. I saw Wigan at the weekend and I was very impressed with them against Manchester City. I think the lower teams have improved, so they’re now getting results against the top four or six that weren’t expected. I expect this season to sway between one club and another all the way through. I really believe that it’s going to swing one way and then another and I think that’s good for British football, I really do.
Does there come a point where the teams at the top can’t keep on improving at the same rate as those just below them?
GG: Yes, there does. Manchester United are top of the table at the present time, but would everybody say they’re stronger this year than they were last year? Have they got somebody who can replace Ronaldo’s 25 Premiership goals a season? Hopefully it’s Rooney this year. But Sir Alex can travel all over the world looking for somebody who can get 40 goals [like Ronaldo] and they might not be available.
The signing of Antonio Valencia, who’s more noted for his delivery than his goals (despite the couple he’s scored recently!), seemed to indicate that Ferguson plans to shift the emphasis of his game plan more towards feeding the strikers…
GG: I think he bought him for potential. But how do you replace somebody who gets you 30 to 40 goals a season? You don’t just look domestically, you look globally. They’re not hanging on trees. It’s a difficult one, and it will be interesting to see how United go without somebody who can score that number of goals. Can Berbatov step up to the plate? Can he say, right, I’m going to be a success in a United shirt?
In Emmanuel Adebayor, Arsenal also lost a player this summer who can get you 30 goals a season…
GG: This is the difficulty of being a manager – you get a very talented, technical player but, if he’s not got the right attitude, you say, do I get rid of him? And does he grow up at another team? So you might sell him and, all of a sudden, he becomes a sensation because you knew all along that he has the technique, but has he grown up with you? No. Arsenal sold him and I think that was the right decision at the right time but it wouldn’t surprise me if he [Adebayor] grew up in a year or two year’s time and became a sensational striker.
Moving on to Aston Villa, where you started your playing career. What do you think of the way Martin O’Neill is going about things there? Has he now sorted their defence out?
GG: I like some of the things Martin’s done. He’s bought young and he’s bought domestic – he believes in that, which is quite refreshing. They’re probably going to be a little bit inconsistent until they really get into their maturity. If you look at all the teams Martin played in as a player, like Nottingham Forest under Brian Clough, they always had two big, strong, defensive centre-halves. And he did the same in his early managerial career – he had two big centre-halves at Leicester, and then three at Celtic, where he actually played three at the back. He believes in two tall, physical centre-halves – they’ve got them now [in Richard Dunne and James Collins], and he lets the rest of the team go and play while they defend. That’s their job. So I think this year is going to be a battle to even get into the top six, never mind the top four. As I said, it’s going to come and go throughout the season. Amazing.
As robust as Dunne and Collins are, they’re not the quickest. But then neither were Adams and Bould. As a manager, how do you go about setting up your defenders to cope with players who are quicker than they are?
GG: It’s easily done. You can coach them so much that they know when to push up and leave the space behind them, and when to drop off. That’s what I call ‘thinking centre-halves’ – you know, centre-halves who are physical but can play with their head. Tony Adams and Steve Bould were outstanding but nobody would say they were overly quick. That’s not a criticism – I think they were excellent thinking defenders. They knew when to push up, they knew how to drop off and give themselves an extra couple of yards against somebody who was very quick. I think they were outstanding. But I must say that the defending I’ve seen so far this season has been abysmal, hence the number of goals we’re seeing. It’s nice to see lots of goals, but it would be nice to see some good defending as well. But the defending has been really awful.
Do you think there’s a reason for that? Could the new ball’s they’re using have anything to do with it?
GG: I genuinely don’t know. But I see some defending and I think, his positional sense is really, really poor, and I’m talking about players at big teams. I’d rather not say who they are though! But yeah, some of the defending has been really, really poor.
What do you think of the job Harry Redknapp’s doing at Tottenham?
GG: He’s doing a very good job. He came in when they were bottom of the league, remember, and he took them into the top half. He stabilised the club and then he started bringing in the players that he wanted. I think they can take anybody on. He’s been unfortunate that two of his best players – Ledley King and Jonathan Woodgate, both of whom I worked with [as a manager at Spurs and Leeds respectively] – can’t seem to get a hundred per cent fit for a period of time. You don’t get continuity in that situation – they come in for a few games, especially in Ledley’s case, and then they’re out again. You don’t get that consistency which you really need if you’re going to win things.
Do you have any regrets about managing Spurs, given how deeply you were – and still are – linked with Arsenal?
GG: No, not at all. In fact, I quite enjoyed it, especially at the start when we won the League Cup. But I knew I was going to get a hard time and I knew that I’d probably have to deliver a trophy every year. I knew that, because of my connections with Arsenal just across the way. But when you’re in a profession, it’s your life and, once you’ve had a period of time at one club and an opportunity comes up at another big club, of course you’re going to take it, irrespective of who they are and where they play. It was my profession, it was another opportunity and I don’t regret it. I really enjoyed it. I knew I was going to get a bit of stick, especially from the really diehard Tottenham fans, but they’ve got to remember as well that it’s a job, I was available to take the position and I took it. I never look back on things – I just keep looking forward. I live for the day and I work for the day, and for tomorrow. I never look back and regret things – there’s no point. There’s nothing you can do about it.
Are football fans too tribal about these matters?
GG: I don’t think so. In fact, the very opposite thing should be happening because it’s such a global game now. Years and years ago, for example, Burnley, Preston and Blackburn were all big teams from their own small communities but, nowadays, everybody plays for anybody all over the world. So no, I don’t think it is too tribal these days – I think it’s just the hardcore supporters who want to identify. They always identified me with Arsenal – rightly so, because I won trophies there. I still love the club, but then I went to Tottenham and I had a good time there. Unfortunately, I just couldn’t sustain the first season, where we won a trophy. That was the problem.
Did you know Sir Bobby Robson well?
GG: No. I knew him, but not that well because, when I started doing well at Arsenal, he was abroad at PSV or Porto or Barcelona. So I didn’t get to know him the way I got to know other managers, who you’d get to see at the game when you played against them. But I met Bobby quite a few times and he was an absolute gem of a person. A lovely person.
Leeds United won again the other night and they currently sit at the top of League One. Are they on the way back?
GG: I hope so. I always like to see clubs with great potential and Leeds have got the potential. They’ve proved it in the past. They had one of the best teams I’ve ever seen, under Don Revie [in the seventies]. Unfortunately they got a bad reputation for a number of different things but, as far as football was concerned, they were unbelievable.
Did it frustrate you seeing the strong foundations you laid there as a manager going to waste, as it were, or do you feel that the good times the club enjoyed prior to its implosion made it all worthwhile?
GG: It was sad. I think we finished 5th in the league in the last season I was there, which got us into Europe, and I think if they’d have just taken their time…I think they were in too much of a hurry to take on the big boys. My working-class philosophy is that you don’t get overnight success – you’ve got to lay a foundation for success. And I just think they were in too much of a hurry.
That being the case, do you think managers don’t get enough time these days?
GG: Of course, everybody says that. The successful managers, like Arsene and Sir Alex, are the longest-serving but, then, the only reason they’re still there is that they win trophies. Ok, Arsene hasn’t won anything for four years, and a young, unknown manager might have been out of a job by now. Clubs are too quick to sack managers nowadays but that’s the society we’re living in. Society now demands success, and they don’t want it tomorrow – they want it now.
Jimmy-Floyd Hasselbaink, who played under you at Leeds, said that you were one of the best managers around in terms of getting the maximum from his players. What’s the secret?
GG: Well, first of all, I think Jimmy’s a good judge! (Laughs) He’s a character. That was a good buy, actually – I bought him from Boavista for £1.8m when nobody had heard of him. He was a great goal-scorer. My god, what a shot he had. I’ve never known anybody hit the ball so hard! But if you start getting into what makes a good manager, you know, have you got another couple of weeks? It’s so complex, it really is.
Did you experience much in the way of crowd trouble while you were manager of Millwall?
GG: Yeah. Obviously there was the time we played Luton Town in the quarter finals of the FA Cup [in 1985, when both sets of players had to sprint to the dressing rooms due to supporter violence, leading to a ban on away supporters by Luton which lasted for four seasons], when there were horses on the pitch and fans all over the place. It was a difficult time and, unfortunately, it raised its head again recently [during Millwall’s League Cup tie against West Ham earlier this season]. It’s something you don’t want to see, and something that’s been more or less contained by the authorities, the stewards and the policing. But every now and then it raises its head again and we’ve got to stamp it out.
Did you ever have any ambitions to manage Scotland?
GG: No, not really. Certain managers are good club-wise, and certain managers are better international managers. I might be wrong – it’s just my opinion. Myself, just taking a bunch of players for four or five days and then leaving them, and them seeing them again a month or six weeks later…you know, I liked to get my teeth into the day-to-day stuff, getting to know the players and trying to form a winning team out of them. There are so many facets to club management that I always thought I was destined to be a club manager rather than an international manager.
Were you ever aware of the drinking and gambling going on in your Arsenal squad?
GG: Not to the extent it was, no. It’s one thing that’s come up before with me. I always said that it’s more difficult to manage a big club in London than it is in the provinces because, in the provinces, all the managers know of the, say, half-a-dozen places where the players would be socially, whether it’s a club, a pub or whatever. They know where they are. In London, you don’t know – there are so many places here that you can’t keep tabs on players’ social time, whereas you can to an extent in the provinces. You can ring up clubs if you know the owner or the bouncers, or something like that, and you can have a little bit of control but, in London, there’s so much to do – there’s South London, there’s the East End, there’s clubs, there’s pubs. You just can’t keep control of them.
Even nowadays, the players like a drink, but not to excess and that’s one thing that I didn’t know happened. Just think – if they hadn’t have drunk so much, could we have won more trophies? That’s the thing you’ve got to think about. With players nowadays, there’s no excuse. I don’t think there’s any problem with going out with your partner or your wife and having a nice meal and a nice bottle of wine.
One thing I will say about the majority of the foreigners is that they come in and they actually devote themselves to their career. If they can get ten years at the very top, they will say, right, I’m going to devote myself to football for ten years. I think they brought that philosophy in and, by and large, I think the English boys learn [from them], especially with their diet and getting rid of the drink. The foreign boys will always have a glass of wine – the occasional one might even overdo it – but, on the whole, they’re good professionals as far as behaviour’s concerned. Quite a number of the British boys could still learn from them but I think they’re getting better.
It’s all chicken and pasta these days. Was there such a strict dietary regime when you were a manager?
GG: Actually, Bertie Mee, who managed me when I was a player at Arsenal, he was the first one to introduce a certain diet prior to a game. It was all very light – scrambled eggs, cereals, nothing heavy. He had a lot of foresight and he was one of the top physiotherapists in the country at that time and he introduced us slowly to proper eating. Players’ diets have definitely improved now, there’s no question about that, but we had a little taste of it when we were younger.
If you could pick one game from your whole career, playing and managing, that made you the most proud…which would it be?
GG: The win at Liverpool [to win the league on the last day of the 1988/89 season] without doubt. There comes a defining moment in one’s life, never mind career. If Michael Thomas hadn’t scored that goal, what would have happened? Well, we wouldn’t have won the championship – where would we have gone then? That gave us the impetus to say, hey, we are the best – or one of the best – and we can do this on a regular basis.
What did you say to Michael afterwards?
GG: I didn’t say anything particular. I just praised the team, because it’s a team thing. Winning the European Cup Winner’s Cup in Copenhagen was also magnificent – we were real underdogs against a very good Parma team full of international players like Zola. We were so much the underdogs, with injuries and everything. That was a fantastic performance and result, to win that one.